The other half of E-X2001 Now/Future?

[siuwongkee]

I always wonder why E-X2001 Now/Future has never reached where PMG is now. My guess is, despite it has the potential, only 1 person can collect the entire sets from Now/Future (especially we already have someone did it in 21(?) ) might have something to do with this.

Anyways, we see a fair amount of Green PMG from the best players from the market since 20-21; but checking with Card Ladder, it seems the "rarer" half of e-x2001 are hardly been seen on the market. I do not mean the extremely rare ones like 3 of 3 Iverson, 4 of 4 Penny. I mean like the SN 25 Olajuwon, SN30 Stockton and so on.

From my point of view, I guess people would rather keep it then selling it to the market. I mean a red PMG Garnett was sold for 29k and a e-x2001 Garneet for 6.6k. If I have the rarer half, I would rather hold for another 10 years and see how things go.

Do you have any friends whom have those HOF now/future and why they are not selling?

[dengbang]

I believe Spinotron has the Credentials Future set, I know he has the 1/1 Mercer. I can't recall if he was able to land the Hill 1/1 though. I wouldn't say that the 97 credentials hasn't reached PMG levels, it just depends on which player and serial #. Jordan Future /72 last sold for $100K+ I believe and Kobe Future /73 $50K+, so the price is already high imo. There are many private sales which could be the reason for lack of sales data, especially for 90's cards.

[mindcycle]

Yeah set and player collectors have the 97 credentials locked up. The lower numbered ones at least. I've been trying to land a Future of one of the Nuggets players that year (Battie, Fortson, Jackson) for quite awhile now. They are all super low numbered. I know who has copies but they won't be selling those any time soon, lol.

I think the price you can get for PMG reds and greens nowadays often outweighs the desire to own those long term in a lot of cases. I know a hardcore player collector who landed a green of his PC guy and then sold it maybe a year later. The price he got was just too hard to pass up and I totally get that mentality and can respect it. Not that Crendentials can't reach crazy prices as well, but PMGs are on a different level. IMO, it's mostly due to the big 90's set guys going after them hard, even prior to the pandemic. Guys like Nat Turner posting his chase on the message boards for years then that turned into guys on IG following suite where an even larger audience can be found. I personally think the prices on some of that stuff has gotten out of hand, but at the same time a lot of it survived the market downturn so that tells you something as well.

[siuwongkee]

I believe Spinotron has the Credentials Future set, I know he has the 1/1 Mercer. I can't recall if he was able to land the Hill 1/1 though. I wouldn't say that the 97 credentials hasn't reached PMG levels, it just depends on which player and serial #. Jordan Future /72 last sold for $100K+ I believe and Kobe Future /73 $50K+, so the price is already high imo. There are many private sales which could be the reason for lack of sales data, especially for 90's cards.

Yes. He completed both sets. From my point of view, e-x2001 is at the 5-10 places from the the top 10. Probably PMG, CPMG, 97/98 Star Rubies and 98 PMG. (Consider adding MJ+Kobe card price for ranking) Then E-x2001 and a few parallel sets.

What I mean is, considering how nice the set looks, how funny to collect. It seems like it can do better. I can imagine collectors go after it if it is like, total 85. So Hill will be 80 future and 5 Now. And Mercer 5 future 80 now.

But hey this is the fun part of collecting, we never know. We can think of many reasons why some cards are selling well, in the end, the market is free.

Yeah set and player collectors have the 97 credentials locked up. The lower numbered ones at least. I've been trying to land a Future of one of the Nuggets players that year (Battie, Fortson, Jackson) for quite awhile now. They are all super low numbered. I know who has copies but they won't be selling those any time soon, lol.

I think the price you can get for PMG reds and greens nowadays often outweighs the desire to own those long term in a lot of cases. I know a hardcore player collector who landed a green of his PC guy and then sold it maybe a year later. The price he got was just too hard to pass up and I totally get that mentality and can respect it. Not that Crendentials can't reach crazy prices as well, but PMGs are on a different level. IMO, it's mostly due to the big 90's set guys going after them hard, even prior to the pandemic. Guys like Nat Turner posting his chase on the message boards for years then that turned into guys on IG following suite where an even larger audience can be found. I personally think the prices on some of that stuff has gotten out of hand, but at the same time a lot of it survived the market downturn so that tells you something as well.

I agree with you. The lowest parallel I have from my 97-98 collection is the future Fortson you mentioned. I think, this set is quite hard to find and the price are considered to be lower than it should be. Lacking an iconic sales matters as well. For instance, if we have a Green Jordan on auction and it is sold for ok 500k, then people whom know less about the set will come to realise this set MIGHT have some potential.

For PMG red and green. I believe the market is quite strong, we see high supply and demand. We can see how the Jordan Red PMG and CPMG goes and see what people think about the set. One of the reasons, like you said, big collectors are chasing PMG, even not completing the sets but to have as many as possible, it is like having a centurion and people know you are serious. (This happens at the PTCG community, to call yourself a serious collector of modern PTCG, first you have to have a 2017 JP Lillie PSA10) How this goes long term really depends on how the community thinks about the sets. Just put it very bluntly, if having 10 red PMG of the top 10 90s players getting more noice, recognitions and respect from the community than getting 10 of any year Black Prizm of the top 10 moder players, then there is a reason for those big guns to enter the market.

In the end, it is like people spending millions on apps, when we are IN the hobby we love to be respected by the community (maybe not 100% but 20%? 30%?) and we also love to tell people how much the cards worth and we also want to tell people how good our insight on the "investment" is. So to me, I have 2 red PMG, 0 CPMG (I find it very baffling) and a few of cards from the top 10 sets. (Like Star Rubies, now and future, 98 PMG) and my cost is my mom settled the debts in 98, so either way it goes, since I never plan to sell any of the cards, is fine. (Like I said of cos I enjoy telling people how much they worth, but even they drop to close to 0, let's be blunt, I spent way more on apps in the last 10 years and they are all 0 in value)

[mindcycle]

I agree with you. The lowest parallel I have from my 97-98 collection is the future Fortson you mentioned. I think, this set is quite hard to find and the price are considered to be lower than it should be. Lacking an iconic sales matters as well. For instance, if we have a Green Jordan on auction and it is sold for ok 500k, then people whom know less about the set will come to realise this set MIGHT have some potential.

For PMG red and green. I believe the market is quite strong, we see high supply and demand. We can see how the Jordan Red PMG and CPMG goes and see what people think about the set. One of the reasons, like you said, big collectors are chasing PMG, even not completing the sets but to have as many as possible, it is like having a centurion and people know you are serious. (This happens at the PTCG community, to call yourself a serious collector of modern PTCG, first you have to have a 2017 JP Lillie PSA10) How this goes long term really depends on how the community thinks about the sets. Just put it very bluntly, if having 10 red PMG of the top 10 90s players getting more noice, recognitions and respect from the community than getting 10 of any year Black Prizm of the top 10 moder players, then there is a reason for those big guns to enter the market.

In the end, it is like people spending millions on apps, when we are IN the hobby we love to be respected by the community (maybe not 100% but 20%? 30%?) and we also love to tell people how much the cards worth and we also want to tell people how good our insight on the "investment" is. So to me, I have 2 red PMG, 0 CPMG (I find it very baffling) and a few of cards from the top 10 sets. (Like Star Rubies, now and future, 98 PMG) and my cost is my mom settled the debts in 98, so either way it goes, since I never plan to sell any of the cards, is fine. (Like I said of cos I enjoy telling people how much they worth, but even they drop to close to 0, let's be blunt, I spent way more on apps in the last 10 years and they are all 0 in value)

By apps do you mean like NFT's or actual phone/computer apps? If you're referring to NFT's I never got the appeal. There's just something about owning a tangible piece of sports history. Even if that is just a tiny piece of cardboard at the end of the day.

[siuwongkee]

I agree with you. The lowest parallel I have from my 97-98 collection is the future Fortson you mentioned. I think, this set is quite hard to find and the price are considered to be lower than it should be. Lacking an iconic sales matters as well. For instance, if we have a Green Jordan on auction and it is sold for ok 500k, then people whom know less about the set will come to realise this set MIGHT have some potential.

For PMG red and green. I believe the market is quite strong, we see high supply and demand. We can see how the Jordan Red PMG and CPMG goes and see what people think about the set. One of the reasons, like you said, big collectors are chasing PMG, even not completing the sets but to have as many as possible, it is like having a centurion and people know you are serious. (This happens at the PTCG community, to call yourself a serious collector of modern PTCG, first you have to have a 2017 JP Lillie PSA10) How this goes long term really depends on how the community thinks about the sets. Just put it very bluntly, if having 10 red PMG of the top 10 90s players getting more noice, recognitions and respect from the community than getting 10 of any year Black Prizm of the top 10 moder players, then there is a reason for those big guns to enter the market.

In the end, it is like people spending millions on apps, when we are IN the hobby we love to be respected by the community (maybe not 100% but 20%? 30%?) and we also love to tell people how much the cards worth and we also want to tell people how good our insight on the "investment" is. So to me, I have 2 red PMG, 0 CPMG (I find it very baffling) and a few of cards from the top 10 sets. (Like Star Rubies, now and future, 98 PMG) and my cost is my mom settled the debts in 98, so either way it goes, since I never plan to sell any of the cards, is fine. (Like I said of cos I enjoy telling people how much they worth, but even they drop to close to 0, let's be blunt, I spent way more on apps in the last 10 years and they are all 0 in value)

By apps do you mean like NFT's or actual phone/computer apps? If you're referring to NFT's I never got the appeal. There's just something about owning a tangible piece of sports history. Even if that is just a tiny piece of cardboard at the end of the day.

I mean apps game. Either case I explaing what do I mean on gaming. Ok. I am not those very big guys whom spent millions a year. In the past 10 years, I guess on average I spent 5-6 figures a year. So if you ask why, I guess the paradigm of gaming has shifted, it is now a pay 2 win era. I guess we can start with dining at a Michelin 3 stars restaurant, no matter how good the food and wine are, we know what they become. So people ENJOY the process, for instance some really like good food, some just like the environemnt and some simply want to show class.

Borrowing what I said, some people enjoy the process and gaming ALWAYS give the impulsive reward someone wants. And people usually spent heavily on apps with heavy PVP features, so with money, you can punish someone you hate, get hale by your community and so on. Is that shallow? Well, let's put things like this, a normal lamborghini is around 400-500k in HK (our tax is very heavy) so let's say you belong to a group of sports car fanatic and you yearly spent is 500k US, you are just one of many low tier guy in the group. But if you spent 500k on a game, unless you are talking about the most PVP unfriendly games like Lineage, basically you will be a god to them and people do enjoy this treatment.

Maybe I can illustrate this with another example, I used to play a game call Monster Strike, there was a whale, whom basically owned everything and he was invited by the developers on streaming and people talked about him whenever they talked about whales (rich people). So after all, how much had he spent in 2-3 years, according to him it was 60m yen so basically 400k us. Let's say you want to promote yourself (monster strike has always been the top 10 grossing apps for many years) for 150k us, you got seriously famous. (you know people spend a lot on ads)

So summing up what I say, it is hard for collectors to understand the appeal of gaming. (My real life friends whom collect watches and wine always ask me so what if you quit the game, can you sell the account, I will say may 1/100 of what you spent) I can tell you how much I regret spending on apps the last 10 years but to some, the experience cannot be bought with the amount they spent on gaming. (And most importantly they do enjoy playing the games and socialising with their peers, it is like one of the best thing for collectors is to chat like we do here) And if you ask is that a bit shallow? Well, my bottomline is as long as you do not put your family in debts (like I did ripping cards in 97-98) who am I to judge (I am not saying your are judgin, you are obviously curious). Of cos, there might be wiser means to spend your money , but in the end, like from my experience I believe most people do not have the ability to taste between 3 stars restaurant and a normal restaurant. (They always say they do) And in most cases sports cars drop in values as well. So maybe the appeal of gaming is the process, like I still chill with my friends playing apps.

[mindcycle]

I mean apps game. Either case I explaing what do I mean on gaming. Ok. I am not those very big guys whom spent millions a year. In the past 10 years, I guess on average I spent 5-6 figures a year. So if you ask why, I guess the paradigm of gaming has shifted, it is now a pay 2 win era. I guess we can start with dining at a Michelin 3 stars restaurant, no matter how good the food and wine are, we know what they become. So people ENJOY the process, for instance some really like good food, some just like the environemnt and some simply want to show class.

Borrowing what I said, some people enjoy the process and gaming ALWAYS give the impulsive reward someone wants. And people usually spent heavily on apps with heavy PVP features, so with money, you can punish someone you hate, get hale by your community and so on. Is that shallow? Well, let's put things like this, a normal lamborghini is around 400-500k in HK (our tax is very heavy) so let's say you belong to a group of sports car fanatic and you yearly spent is 500k US, you are just one of many low tier guy in the group. But if you spent 500k on a game, unless you are talking about the most PVP unfriendly games like Lineage, basically you will be a god to them and people do enjoy this treatment.

Maybe I can illustrate this with another example, I used to play a game call Monster Strike, there was a whale, whom basically owned everything and he was invited by the developers on streaming and people talked about him whenever they talked about whales (rich people). So after all, how much had he spent in 2-3 years, according to him it was 60m yen so basically 400k us. Let's say you want to promote yourself (monster strike has always been the top 10 grossing apps for many years) for 150k us, you got seriously famous. (you know people spend a lot on ads)

So summing up what I say, it is hard for collectors to understand the appeal of gaming. (My real life friends whom collect watches and wine always ask me so what if you quit the game, can you sell the account, I will say may 1/100 of what you spent) I can tell you how much I regret spending on apps the last 10 years but to some, the experience cannot be bought with the amount they spent on gaming. (And most importantly they do enjoy playing the games and socialising with their peers, it is like one of the best thing for collectors is to chat like we do here) And if you ask is that a bit shallow? Well, my bottomline is as long as you do not put your family in debts (like I did ripping cards in 97-98) who am I to judge (I am not saying your are judgin, you are obviously curious). Of cos, there might be wiser means to spend your money , but in the end, like from my experience I believe most people do not have the ability to taste between 3 stars restaurant and a normal restaurant. (They always say they do) And in most cases sports cars drop in values as well. So maybe the appeal of gaming is the process, like I still chill with my friends playing apps.

Got ya. Yeah i'm a gamer myself but have never really gotten into multiplayer games enough to buy extra content. Not that I don't enjoy them, I did play Modern Warfare for awhile with friends, but just never enough to want to purchase anything extra. Now, give me a good single player first person or third person action RPG and i'll play it for hundreds of hours and buy any DLC that comes out, lol. I also play Pathfinder with friends once a week and have definitely purchased books (physical and online), extra content for adventure paths, or just alternate content in the platform we use to play. So all that said, I totally understand the appeal / reasoning behind purchasing extra content for something that is 100% consumable and not worth anything after you buy it, but is tied more to a social outlet.

Cards seem to be different (to me at least) as they appeal more to my collector mindset in that I purchase and horde them for what is ultimately a solitary completion type goal. Usually one that I never reach, lol, but it's the chase that has always kept me actively collecting. The social aspect of showing off cards has only really been a thing for me in the past 4-5 years since I joined IG. Not that I didn't post photos of my cards on the message boards prior to that, but when I did it was mostly a catalyst to track down certain cards, find info about a set, parallel run, etc... The cards I post on IG typically aren't the ones that get me the most excited and I find I usually end up taking photos of the cards I know will get noticed. Which writing that just now and realizing it is kind of sad tbh.. but I think that is kind of normal for social media like you mention. We want to get noticed for having something unique or desirable. Nothing wrong with that, but I do want to try harder to post lessen known cards that may not get the like count, but that I know others with a similar collecting style to myself would enjoy.

I'd say the social aspect of cards that i've enjoyed the most has been the friendships i’ve made, the discussions (whether cards/sets or just sports in general), and just the like-mindedness of other collectors I relate to. Rarely has it ever been about the cards themselves. Like mentioned above, that's always been a more solitary thing for me.

[siuwongkee]

I think PC gamers are different from apps gamer. I guess most PC gamers have some standard to themselves. (Like I used to play LOL with my friends, they will spend on extra content like avatar or skins but they will never play any game that you can pay to win) While those big whales whom play Apps version of MMORPG, like me, I used to spent extra on MMORPG (Like I would buy gold, found people to level up for me) so in the past we did that unofficially but now the developers provide your will OFFICIAL means to pay to win.

And you are absolutely right, collectors have very different mindsets from apps gamers. Most of the time, apps provide INSTANT satisfactions, like I was beaten hard and if I spend enough at an event, I can punch back. (But collection take times and in many cases it is not just about money) Moreover, some apps are more complicated, like those "strategy" apps, they required a lot of co-ordination and so on and so forth and trash talk is always a part of this. So basically a vicious cycle, the developers create a hostile environment that you need to spend to win and because people always want to win and want to brag, so it is very easy you will have foes when both players want the prize. And people then stand side and people get attached with the friends and bull shit with the foes. (And card collectors are usually less aggressive and friendly)

I always like collecting things. I am grateful you setup this forum so I can share my experience with others. I think the best part of collection, like you said, we cannot deny human nature that we love showing off and the desire to see our collection increase in value. But in the end, learning the story from other collectors, discussing what we love, are what make the hobby great. Especially for normal collectors like myself, I am not those whom ripped 30k worth cards every week and constantly buying anything that without a budget.