Should Card "Cleaning" be Considered Alteration?

[mindcycle]

Above is a video I made today discussing the recent Victor Wenbenyama Prizm 1/1 card where the guys who pulled it sat in the PSA offices of all places and gave a shout-out to Kurt's Card Care..

I tried to get a bit more into the criteria that PSA uses to deem a card as altered, receiving a no grade designation or being slabbed as Altered Authentic (AA), since I know this has already been covered quite a bit in the last few days.

I'd be interested in hearing what you all think of this situation, or just your thoughts on card cleaning in general.

I will say that I normally get a decent amount of feedback after I post a link to one of my videos on IG but this time it's been mostly crickets. It leads me to believe that a lot of people are either using services like Kurt's Card Care or they disagree with my opinion that waxing, soaking, pressing cards, etc.. is alteration. To me it seems that there's been quite a large shift in perspective than say even 5 years ago when it comes to acceptance of these practices.

[darz90scardz]

Nice vid, and nice to finally put a face to a name. Couldn’t agree more with the overarching point you make at the end about how we place too much importance on the grades of modern cards. I’ve had the same view for a while now and looking at the hobby through that lens always makes it that much funnier.

I was replying to some people in the lememe and aih ig comment sections the other day regarding the Kurt shoutout at Collectors, I honestly couldn’t tell if they were just young or morons.

This thread also got some new legs
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1520281

[auburn35]

For me personally, it really comes down to what is being done to the card and why it is being done. I don't think there's many that would complain about someone simply wiping dust/dirt off the surface, as they would likely do the same, before putting the card into their own collection.
When someone is needing to break out wax, polish, liquid, brushes, reshaping tools,.... to "clean" a card, that's where I think it moves into the alteration and disclosure territory. You can do whatever you want, but if you're doing so to improve the value (restore the the card), it's only fair to inform the buyer.

I've shared this before and it's on topic, so thought it might add to the discussion. While it doesn't specifically mention "cleaning", there's actually a law in California that requires disclosure of altered/refurbished trading cards. Up to $5000 penalty per card, if sold without disclosure of the work done. Would "cleaning" fall within this description?

“Altered or refurbished” means repair work which has been performed to enhance the value of the sports trading card as a collectible. This work includes, but is not limited to, filling in holes, building new corners, ironing out creases, or touching up the pictures or borders on the sports trading card.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... nNum=21671

ARTICLE 7. Sports Trading Cards [21670 - 21672] ( Article 7 added by Stats. 1992, Ch. 1120, Sec. 2. )

21671.
(a) Any sports trading card that is altered or refurbished shall be accompanied by a certificate stating the exact work done to the sports trading card, the date the work was performed, the cost of that work, and the name, phone number, and address of the person who performed the work.

(b) Any person or agent thereof, who knowingly sells or trades a sports card in violation of subdivision (a), shall both:

(1) Refund to the buyer, the full amount paid for the altered or refurbished sports trading card or the full retail value of any nonmonetary consideration received in exchange for the altered or refurbished sports trading card, or both.

(2) Be liable to the buyer for a civil penalty not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000) for each violation. Each card sold represents a separate and distinct violation.

(Amended by Stats. 1995, Ch. 360, Sec. 1. Effective January 1, 1996.)

[mindcycle]

Nice vid, and nice to finally put a face to a name. Couldn’t agree more with the overarching point you make at the end about how we place too much importance on the grades of modern cards. I’ve had the same view for a while now and looking at the hobby through that lens always makes it that much funnier.

I was replying to some people in the lememe and aih ig comment sections the other day regarding the Kurt shoutout at Collectors, I honestly couldn’t tell if they were just young or morons.

This thread also got some new legs
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1520281

Appreciate it man! Yeah I got a new setup to record videos and I figured I needed to get out of the 2000's era mentality of remaining completely anonymous, lol.

It's honestly quite astounding to me that they didn't know that it might not be the best idea to shout out a card cleaning "altering" service while sitting at PSA.. It kind of just shows you how new and naive most of these guys are nowadays

For me personally, it really comes down to what is being done to the card and why it is being done. I don't think there's many that would complain about someone simply wiping dust/dirt off the surface, as they would likely do the same, before putting the card into their own collection.
When someone is needing to break out wax, polish, liquid, brushes, reshaping tools,.... to "clean" a card, that's where I think it moves into the alteration and disclosure territory. You can do whatever you want, but if you're doing so to improve the value (restore the the card), it's only fair to inform the buyer.

I've shared this before and it's on topic, so thought it might add to the discussion. While it doesn't specifically mention "cleaning", there's actually a law in California that requires disclosure of altered/refurbished trading cards. Up to $5000 penalty per card, if sold without disclosure of the work done. Would "cleaning" fall within this description?

“Altered or refurbished” means repair work which has been performed to enhance the value of the sports trading card as a collectible. This work includes, but is not limited to, filling in holes, building new corners, ironing out creases, or touching up the pictures or borders on the sports trading card.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... nNum=21671

ARTICLE 7. Sports Trading Cards [21670 - 21672] ( Article 7 added by Stats. 1992, Ch. 1120, Sec. 2. )

21671.
(a) Any sports trading card that is altered or refurbished shall be accompanied by a certificate stating the exact work done to the sports trading card, the date the work was performed, the cost of that work, and the name, phone number, and address of the person who performed the work.

(b) Any person or agent thereof, who knowingly sells or trades a sports card in violation of subdivision (a), shall both:

(1) Refund to the buyer, the full amount paid for the altered or refurbished sports trading card or the full retail value of any nonmonetary consideration received in exchange for the altered or refurbished sports trading card, or both.

(2) Be liable to the buyer for a civil penalty not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000) for each violation. Each card sold represents a separate and distinct violation.

(Amended by Stats. 1995, Ch. 360, Sec. 1. Effective January 1, 1996.)

Yeah I agree man. Nothing wrong with simply wiping down the card to clear finger prints. When it comes to adding additional elements, or extreme measures like soaking cards, that should be a huge red flag that what you are doing can quickly get into alteration territory.

Thanks for pointing out the CA law, that's quite interesting!

[SacKingsCards]

That law is wild. I'd have never thought that trading cards were on any sort of legislative radar. I don't wish harm to anyone, but I wonder if there's a path to shutting down entities like Kurt's Card Care and the others with literal booths set up at shows going against this law in ways that could incur penalties.

I think what you mentioned in your video rings true: this is what the hobby has turned itself into. When grading results in such premiums in value based on a miniscule differences in condition, this is what's going to happen. There's incentive to make cards that aren't 10s into 10s. It's a different aspect but the same in nature as shilling or pumping: dishonest ways to increase card and collection values. Whether it's done to increase profit or social media presence/following. I've been saying it and I'll say it again. From forums to instagram to Panini/Topps/Fanatics to grading and all around, the focus in sports cards has shifted from collecting cards to making money and building a brand and following. This is the natural result.

[AbraCalabro]

So, seems like PSA is alright with altered cards in their flimsy, garbage slabs. This is just as bad as BGS certifying the grades on those altered LeBron RPAs as legitimate, along with the statement that the cards, which are clearly altered, are unaltered. Would be hilarious if PSA's value plummets because of this over time.

Don't send cards to PSA and give Natalie more money to buy cards with.

[mindcycle]

I’m sure everyone has seen PSA president Ryan Hoge’s post/response about this situation already, but just in case..

https://x.com/rhoge/status/176802857642 ... X4-IKzqTYA

IMO, he is attempting to appeal to both sides of the fence here. He tells the long time collector that they will still reject cards that they detect had cleaning done while at the same time giving these practices the green light by saying they can’t detect it.

If PSA still had any integrity left they would have deactivated the cert, or at the very least tell us what type of cleaning was done to the card. Hell, just saying “we spoke with all individuals and confirmed only a microfiber cloth was used to wipe it down” would have been better than saying we couldn’t detect anything. Big miss IMO, and shows me that they’ll continue to let this stuff slid so it doesn’t negatively affect thier bottom line.

[AbraCalabro]

I’m sure everyone has seen PSA president Ryan Hoge’s post/response about this situation already, but just in case..

IMO, he is attempting to appeal to both sides of the fence here. He tells the long time collector that they will still reject cards that they detect had cleaning done while at the same time giving these practices the green light by saying they can’t detect it.

If PSA still had any integrity left they would have deactivated the cert, or at the very least told us what type of cleaning was done to the card. Hell, just saying “we spoke with all individuals and confirmed only a microfiber cloth was used to wipe it down” would have been better than saying we couldn’t detect anything. Big miss IMO, and shows me that they’ll continue to let this stuff slid so it doesn’t negatively affect thier bottom line.

I agree with you completely. I think you hit the nail on the head. PSA wants that card in their slab so they can get publicity. PSA reminds me a lot of PWCC as they have a severe lacking in integrity just the same. I don't think a company run by a guy who collects, has his own auction house, his own grader which his own cards are sent in to can be fully trusted: total conflict of interest here. Reminder to everyone, he got called out for preferential treatment, we've seen it, he probably won't make the same mistake of posting non 10s as 10s again unless the images are curated.

Nat also complained about the PSA scam known as the 'upcharge' before he took over at PSA and yet here they are, in the modern day, still running that same scam. Complete two face.

PSA is founded on an altered card, let's not forget that either. It's all about publicity and they're actually part of the problem now more than ever, especially by OK'ing card alteration in the indirect fashion they did. PSA's goal is to take over and put every one else out of business, so I personally do not doubt that they want that card, free of criticism, in their slab and I also don't doubt that there are talking heads taking payola from this piece of sh!t company and its operators.

Let us not forget also who the head of PSA surrounds himself with, the CardBladder clowns, money grubbing sellout and money grubbing hypeman ... and Goldin, the latter of which had no problems selling you junk and fake crap on HSN once upon a time in yesteryear. Finally, all the goofballs who ran off the censorship forums for IG where they would not be criticized are part of his circle too. Working for PWCC and ignoring their track record in order to get on their payroll? No problem. Friends with Frauderic Bitz even though that sh!thead has no problems defrauding you for tens of thousands off altered cards? No problem.

The WORST and MOST corruption is in majority part found in high end circles.

[darz90scardz]

I’m just gonna leave this here…

Nats setting himself up for that Meguiars/Ammo NYC mega merger beautifully.




Chip Foose headlining the '25 Natty. Toting the Ledell superstash in the Peli praying my pack unfresh 93 Fleer Ultra'll be fortunate enough to receive an Overhaulin©.'

[AbraCalabro]

I’m just gonna leave this here…

Nats setting himself up for that Meguiars/Ammo NYC mega merger beautifully.




Chip Foose headlining the '25 Natty. Toting the Ledell superstash in the Peli praying my pack unfresh 93 Fleer Ultra'll be fortunate enough to receive an Overhaulin©.'

Never get cheated!

[Cardiac kemba pc]

I'm a bit late to the party here, but agree that anything other than wiping down with a mico fibre to remove prints and dust is 100% altering the card imo.

I collected as a kid in the 90s (I wouldn't really call it collecting more just looking at cards in binders) but would say I'm relatively new to the hobby and been in for about 5yrs now. That being said even I know what's happening is wrong and to be considered altered.

I think this is a societal issue at heart more so than a hobby issue. A gambling, flipping, side hustle, glorifying or wealth influence through social media in the last 5yrs is possibly a root cause. I work in finance in a compliance role and have certainly found that people were generally more honest 5+ yrs ago. Nowadays ive found alot of lying and deceitful acts for financial gain. (I say these from a few anecdotally with no real evidence).

I find the whole issue, disheartening and very frustrating from a collector standpoint. Very much over all the shenanigans for financial gain.

[mindcycle]

I'm a bit late to the party here, but agree that anything other than wiping down with a mico fibre to remove prints and dust is 100% altering the card imo.

I collected as a kid in the 90s (I wouldn't really call it collecting more just looking at cards in binders) but would say I'm relatively new to the hobby and been in for about 5yrs now. That being said even I know what's happening is wrong and to be considered altered.

I think this is a societal issue at heart more so than a hobby issue. A gambling, flipping, side hustle, glorifying or wealth influence through social media in the last 5yrs is possibly a root cause. I work in finance in a compliance role and have certainly found that people were generally more honest 5+ yrs ago. Nowadays ive found alot of lying and deceitful acts for financial gain. (I say these from a few anecdotally with no real evidence).

I find the whole issue, disheartening and very frustrating from a collector standpoint. Very much over all the shenanigans for financial gain.

Yeah it's wild how quickly this type of card doctoring has become accepted as "normal". I too feel that a lot of it comes from the hustle/gambler culture that has been popularized by social media. Making a quick buck is now all the rage sadly. A lot of these guys have no issues doing whatever they can to maximize profits regardless of the moral implications.

[mindcycle]

I did two videos on this topic and wanted to share some of the comments I got from people who seemed to be "pro" cleaning/altering. Some are trying pretty hard to justify it lol.

[AbraCalabro]

I did two videos on this topic and wanted to share some of the comments I got from people who seemed to be "pro" cleaning/altering. Some are trying pretty hard to justify it lol.

The sheer force of cognitive dissonance in these posts is insane lol. The first one stands out the most "restores and fixes damaged cards" FIXES - DAMAGED - CARDS lmao, fixing the damage is altering the card. That post and the rest that follow are doing enough mental gymnastics to put on a Cirque De Soleil show.

The last one about PSA is also hilarious, if PSA can't tell, then there's nothing wrong with it: I guess if I bang that guy's wife while he's out at work and he can't tell that it's happening, then there's nothing wrong with it.

[AbraCalabro]

Dan the Card Man has a video on it.



Chemicals applied to clean the card, later the stain returns, the card's original color is also basically changed forever. Can't wait to see what happens to Kunt's Card Care cards a few years down the road. Would be hilarious if he gets taken to the cleaners...no pun intended.

[darz90scardz]

^ a mass scale reckoning would be the most fitting and hilarious thing to happen in the history of the hobby

Old chromium cards aren’t the only ticking time bombs anymore

[mindcycle]

The last one about PSA is also hilarious, if PSA can't tell, then there's nothing wrong with it: I guess if I bang that guy's wife while he's out at work and he can't tell that it's happening, then there's nothing wrong with it.

So here's the full conversation there as I really wanted to see what was driving this mindset I suppose. I made a similar comparison but probably should have tried your approach, lol.

[mindcycle]

Dan the Card Man has a video on it.



Chemicals applied to clean the card, later the stain returns, the card's original color is also basically changed forever. Can't wait to see what happens to Kunt's Card Care cards a few years down the road. Would be hilarious if he gets taken to the cleaners...no pun intended.

Yeah this is a good example of what soaking can do down the road. I've also heard instances of the cards splitting and other things that wouldn't be happening if they were just left alone.

^ a mass scale reckoning would be the most fitting and hilarious thing to happen in the history of the hobby

Old chromium cards aren’t the only ticking time bombs anymore

It totally would. All these flippers stuck with browned up chrome cards or something like that lol

[AbraCalabro]

The last one about PSA is also hilarious, if PSA can't tell, then there's nothing wrong with it: I guess if I bang that guy's wife while he's out at work and he can't tell that it's happening, then there's nothing wrong with it.

So here's the full conversation there as I really wanted to see what was driving this mindset I suppose. I made a similar comparison but probably should have tried your approach, lol.

lmfao. So, basically, "I want to make money off of altered cards for higher grades and higher sales, so it's okay."

Many of us knew that this is what garyv was going to bring in with him, but uh...hey:

"durrr GRowing duh hoBBy! #invest"

- blowout talking heads elitist moneygrubber sellouts


EDIT: by the way, I want to urinate on a card and sell it to that dude after PSA fails to detect traces of urine. I'm sure that if PSA can't detect it, the dry urine has some how vanished from existence.

[darz90scardz]

He may be dumb but at least the guy left off on a respectful note. I expected that to spiral big time.

[darz90scardz]

Haven't even watched yet, but this should be entertaining at the very least:

[darz90scardz]

45 minutes in and Kurt rivaling the Josh Luber/Michael Rubin most amount of words to say nothing record

[mindcycle]

45 minutes in and Kurt rivaling the Josh Luber/Michael Rubin most amount of words to say nothing record

Dude.. pretty much lol. I'm trying to make it through without skipping around a ton but it's almost impossible. He seemingly has so much to say but most of it's just repeating himself or more or less skirting things avoiding the tougher answers it seems.

I you look at the chat at around the 31 minute mark I think it was where Orlando from A Collectors Dream asks about a card he bought that was cleaned where a stain returned. Detailed in the following video.



Dan the Card Man also covered it.



I'll have to keep watching but it seems like they just ignore the question.

I'm now to this part where he's recounting "PSA employee's" DM'ing him on IG joking around how dirty cards should have gone through Kurt's card care. He stuttered through the whole story then went on to to talk about how the "guy who operates PSA" messaged him, who he couldn't remember.. lol. The whole thing sounded either highly fabricated or he was choosing his words were very carefully in an effort to avoid talking about the fact PSA doesn't actually approve of 99% of what he does.

https://www.youtube.com/live/EEdUEXvlt- ... dJe&t=2054

Then we have this part where he's asked "Do you consider card cleaning to be altering"?

It's another long rant spinning in circles pretty much, but during all that he says, quote, "Grading companies aren't the authorities on cleaning cards".. and I had to go back and watch that twice lol. 99% of people using his products are sending it to the "authorities", or at least they've deemed them authoritative enough to pay them, and they are saying they are against it. The whole thing is just laughable and just shows how hard he's trying to skirt around PSA's stance on cleaning cards.

https://www.youtube.com/live/EEdUEXvlt- ... _-J&t=2449

That's all I could do for now as I have some stuff going on today but i'm going to try and make it through the rest later and post additional thoughts.

[mindcycle]

So it looks like having a stain possibly come back is answered here:
https://www.youtube.com/live/EEdUEXvlt- ... _Tm&t=2863

Once again very wishy washy on the answer. "I don't think so.." type responses here.

[auburn35]

Interesting listen.

I was disappointed Jeremy didn't fall back on his association with Tag for some of his questions, especially when asking about grading companies communication and Kurt saying before/after is one of the only detection methods.

Not surprising, but if accurate and psa actually cares, hearing that Kurt has no submission restrictions is just crazy.