Grading companies = bad for the hobby?

[siuwongkee]

I guess many have discussed this topic, but since I started collecting again, I feel very frustrated with the grading companies, because:

"Gradings have low consistency. The standards are subjected to human errors and incapibility, (Like we see they fail to realize fake/backdoor cards) and possibily who is grading the card. "

Ok, let's be realistic, I heard from my sources, even GIA grading, there MIGHT be some human factors; nevertheless, a F colour diamond is nearly impossible to be graded a D. (There might be errors but highly unlikely.) Nevertheless, even with the basic diamond report, you can basically tell why you receive a certain grade and having a GENERAL understanding of your diamond. And TBH comparing with PSA grading, the fees is super reasonable, a 1 carat diamond only cost you $113 US.

Things are the opposite for card grading. You send you card, you finger cross it will be graded decently. When you receive the grade, you have no idea why it is the case. Even with sub-grades, as we all know, a 9.5 corner means nothing, because 9.5 means very differently from time to time and card to card. My experience from my shop's grading (which is alot) almost feel like they are encouraging you to keep re-grading UNTIL you get the grade you desire.

Some might say AI grading will be a big thing. I will give my 2 cents that, if they tell you they are grading with an AI alograthim. it is no better than PSA/BGS because in the end, you still DO NOT know what is wrong with your card and there is no appeal system. I mean for instance, if every card being graded is with a general report, like you receive a 9 because your corner is whitened (and they have very clear indication regarding how whitened corners affect grades) it is possible for you to make an appeal, which for now, I do not see how it can be.

So in the end, are grading companies BAD for the hobby. Sadly, no, in fact, it is helping the hobby. Just for instance, PTCG will not get too much attention in China without the PSA 10 BGS 10 Lillie. And this is the saddest part of a lot of hobby talk. We talk a lot about the reality of the hobby, but in the end, like I have discussed with a lot of collectors, they suppose being able to GAMBLE grades is good for them. So it is like I suggested, suppose in these 2 monthsan auction house sold 4-5 fake card, we might have a lot of discussion but in the end, if a card you look for that valued 50k and never been seen for 10 years is on the house and 5 min before bid end, it is at $5k, will you go for the bid? I bet many will and this is the reality of a David vs Goliath.

[FrankAZHP]

There's always going to be some issues with grades from any company whether it be human or AI, but at the end of the day, it all depends on how you look at it.

I use grades as a "guide", and buy graded mostly because I like the concept of a slab that can't be opened and won't be damaged (assuming the card inside doesn't move around) therefore it's maintained and preserved. It's mainly a preservation thing. Bonus points to a grading company that uses a minimalistic label design, as I don't want to draw away from the look of the card. I happen to like PSAs labels due to their simplicity, and having been around the hobby for so long, my mind kinda blanks out any issues I'd have with their label, but it also helps my favorite color is red, and practically everything I own is black/white/grey/red.

But I do see some things being done for the better regarding some of your concerns.
I just saw a promo for Tag grading yesterday, and I had no idea they had such a detailed computerized system and detailed report for grades. It was seriously impressive and doing something different.
I don't care for their labels, but I don't hate them either, and it does seem to me they're taking a minimalist approach with the clear/black/white.
Like watch this vid to the end and tell me that isn't cool and productive towards a preservation standpoint:



I think grading in general is good for the hobby because it allows options. There will always be some bad, including some of the less reputable grading companies, stuff like mislabels, grading fakes etc. But having the option of SOME level of long term protection and a (mostly accurate) option for authentication is better than not having those options. People who don't care about grading can always just buy raw or buy graded and crack it out.

[siuwongkee]

There's always going to be some issues with grades from any company whether it be human or AI, but at the end of the day, it all depends on how you look at it.

I use grades as a "guide", and buy graded mostly because I like the concept of a slab that can't be opened and won't be damaged (assuming the card inside doesn't move around) therefore it's maintained and preserved. It's mainly a preservation thing. Bonus points to a grading company that uses a minimalistic label design, as I don't want to draw away from the look of the card. I happen to like PSAs labels due to their simplicity, and having been around the hobby for so long, my mind kinda blanks out any issues I'd have with their label, but it also helps my favorite color is red, and practically everything I own is black/white/grey/red.

But I do see some things being done for the better regarding some of your concerns.
I just saw a promo for Tag grading yesterday, and I had no idea they had such a detailed computerized system and detailed report for grades. It was seriously impressive and doing something different.
I don't care for their labels, but I don't hate them either, and it does seem to me they're taking a minimalist approach with the clear/black/white.
Like watch this vid to the end and tell me that isn't cool and productive towards a preservation standpoint:



I think grading in general is good for the hobby because it allows options. There will always be some bad, including some of the less reputable grading companies, stuff like mislabels, grading fakes etc. But having the option of SOME level of long term protection and a (mostly accurate) option for authentication is better than not having those options. People who don't care about grading can always just buy raw or buy graded and crack it out.

TAG's grading looks really great. I LOVE IT. This is exactly what I am talking. I suppose like sportscarddad has suggested, they can even, at the pop report do something like if it is a serialized parallel, list the number, so that people know what they are doing. Glad seeing companies like this using modern tech for the better.

To me, originally, I graded the cards because the cards were from my 90's collection, some of the sleeves are wet due to the weather in HK. I did not dare to remove the card myself. (I once removed a MTG card, very rare, no pop report over 9 and I scratched the corner and the corder is 7 when everything at ccg is 9.5 and 10) So I just sent them and thinking it is like putting them in the slabs. But just comparing CGC and BGS, I already felt a bit sick of BGS. And after buying some cards from the market, I feel like, it is very depressing that cards are graded without a clear definition.

In the end, I guess I could not blame how they are conducting business, especially the Pokemon TCG is blooming, if their standard is very rigid, people will not regrade, cross grade hoping for a better result. And that's why, I will buy PSA cards, espeically those newer ones that have a record. I can see for myself, at least from my standard if the grade is fair.

[mindcycle]

Great topic. Here's my 2 cents..

I buy graded cards for 3 different reason.

1 - Authentication purposes. Especially for in person autos that are often faked, but also for cards themselves that are faked (rarer 90's parallels, Jordan Fleer RCs, etc..)

2 - Vintage where there are a limited number of decent condition copies available and the grade actually matters.

3 - Junk wax / junk slab era cards that I can find for under $10. I used to do this exclusively with my Topps Chrome RC collection when I saw a graded RC's show up in the $5-$10 range. I mostly grabbed that stuff in an attempt to fill up a two row box I was working on, but it's now spilled over to modern junk slab era stuff for guys I PC like Gallinari, Gary Harris. I think of it as my connection to the "modern" hobby since i'm mostly a raw card collector. It's kind of like a side PC in of itself lol.

On the flip side, here's the reasons I think grading is/has become a bit overrated. Especially for modern stuff

1 - Most modern cards are mint condition or better out of the pack, especially chrome stock cards. If you look at pop reports for modern cards the majority of them are PSA 9 or 10, or BGS 9 or 9.5. Given the super small difference in a single grade point (or half point) I don't understand paying a premium for something that is likely in good enough condition anywhere you'd find it.

Nowadays people are treating modern cards like the Mona lisa, wearing gloves to rip packs, immediately sleeving everything, etc.. If you are paying hundreds or thousands of dollars extra for a single point in the grading scale (especially for base or high print run cards) I think you are throwing your money down the drain. It's literally become "buy the grade, not the card" mentality, and it's baffling to me how mainstream that train of thought has become in the past few years.

2 - Also related to the point above, i've seen modern PSA 10 cards that clearly aren't Gem Mint. I've owed a few of these actually where there are clear defects in the card stock, a missed rough edges, etc where I scratch my head seeing it in a PSA case. I have to imagine with the pure number of cards graded these past few years a tone of stuff slipped thought the cracks. We have a to remember that grading is highly subjective, at best..

[siuwongkee]

Great topic. Here's my 2 cents..

Totally agree with why we are grading. Regarding the modern cards, you are absolutely right. Again, sorry I really have little understanding regarding sports cards I can only parallel it with TCG. People EXPECT a PSA 10 modern Charizard card will become like THE 1999 one. At the same time, inflencers keep educating people Lillie cards are so rare, a Pop 5xx PSA 10 JP Lillie has been selling at 30K. When the same copy in any other language PSA 10 is at most 1-2k. And tbh, if you know TCG, you know JP cards are printed with higher quality. Like MTG, I ripped 36 boxes of collector boxes. ($3XX per box) The foils are crazily damaged, yes damaged, I am not talkign about bad centering, whitening edges, they are damaged from the pack. But, the JP version, good everything.

What do I mean? I mean we have a limited print run of JP Lillie, but not rare like 50/100 and most of them are at good condition like you said, there is nothing really RARE about a OSA 10. (We have a lot of PSA 9 and BGS 9.5, which as we know, if you dare to try, it MIGHT become a PSA /BGS 10.) Not to mention we have many copies of the same Lillie at different language. But people still are taught to have the mindset, to call yourself a SERIOUS collector, you have to have at least a PSA 9 Lillie.

Buying the card not the grade, is hard, really hard. Because how many of them really like the card? Or they just buy the card because everybody likes it? (It is not an either or but many are standing at a dangerous polar) When you buy a PSA 10 Lillie, everybody likes it, telling you wow how great the card is, giving thumbs up, these are all incentives that motivates people to keep buying and showing. Again nothing wrong, just I guess the more people like that, the hobby is going to be more materialistic. Like not only you have to have a rare card, you need to have a rare grade. It is like, in my shop, I always kind of forbid those whom mock the others because they use low rarity cards. (Same card different price) But then from my experience, it ends up costing a lot of clients, people just need to brag and the competition of who is the biggest spenders always drive sales. And as a result, I was forbidden to appear at the shop.

In the end, I guess the saddest thing for me, is, we have to accept grading is largely subject, which, if grades do not heavily inflence card prices, it is fine, but it is not and it is where we are.

[siuwongkee]

I just see a Penny and a Ray Allen PSA 10 1997 Ultra Star golds on Ebay. Immediately, I want to participate, despite the fact that I considered buying the Allen Iverson BGS 9 2 months back an emotive purchase. (It did not fulfill the rules I promised my family regarding which card I could buy)

When we say buy the card not the grade. The situation is very similar with a wedding ring. We all know debeers created the culture and to some, the ring shows how much you love your wife to be. Of course, not everybody is like that but saying buy the card not the grade, in reality is like:

1: Love your husband, not the ring
2: Show your mom the gratitude, not only on mother's day
3: Love the card, not the price

So in the end, I guess when grades determine card price, it is really hard to ignore how grades affect how much you want the card. (Just like the same card is serialized or not)

[mindcycle]

I just see a Penny and a Ray Allen PSA 10 1997 Ultra Star golds on Ebay. Immediately, I want to participate, despite the fact that I considered buying the Allen Iverson BGS 9 2 months back an emotive purchase. (It did not fulfill the rules I promised my family regarding which card I could buy)

When we say buy the card not the grade. The situation is very similar with a wedding ring. We all know debeers created the culture and to some, the ring shows how much you love your wife to be. Of course, not everybody is like that but saying buy the card not the grade, in reality is like:

1: Love your husband, not the ring
2: Show your mom the gratitude, not only on mother's day
3: Love the card, not the price

So in the end, I guess when grades determine card price, it is really hard to ignore how grades affect how much you want the card. (Just like the same card is serialized or not)

Personally grade has never mattered to me, outside of the few examples I provided above of course. Which I realize is not the norm even going back a number of years, but I’d say even just 6-7 years ago you saw a lot less collectors buying slabs just to buy slabs. Not to say grading wasn’t a big part of the hobby still, it was just a lot different from what I can remember. The cards people were grading were largely cards that “needed” grading; vintage, condition sensitive sets, cards from highly faked sets, etc.. Modern cards were definitely not being heavily graded like we see today.

I think having graded cards nowadays still presents opportunities for collectors, however, even if they are like me and don’t really care as much. You have a lot of people chasing grades so it’s possible to trade well know names or “hot player off the week/month” graded cards and pick up a sweet rare raw PC card in return. I did this extensively in the boom era of 2020/21. I traded or sold probably 80% of my graded Prizm RC and junk era graded collections, and then back into rare PC stuff.

Thinking outside the box and dare I say more "rationally" not putting too much weight on grades can definitely have its advantages, even nowadays.

[siuwongkee]

To me, I have to confess, I do mind the grades, I am OK if it is a 6 and you give me a 6 and if it is a 9 you give me a 9 and the standard is largely consistent. It is like I have 3 diamonds from my parents, nothing really great but at least I know why they are graded like that.

Echoing what you just shared regarding MJ PSA 10. The question is like I shared above, what makes a pop 5XX PSA 10 Lillie JP version so much more expensive than a PSA 9 and a PSA 10 Lillie other version? Please forgive my strong words, I think that is pathetic. The quality of grading, the amount of supply do not justified the premium.

But in the end, I suppose this is how the world is like. I am not grading any card soon and tbh, I think thinking outside the box, I do feel perfectly fine having a limited to 200/100/50 cards having a lower grade at a HUGE discount. Like using the Ultra Stars Golds Ray Allen, it will be over 3k but a PSA9 BGS 9 will likely be sold at 1k, so as a collector and not a deep wallet, I just go with cards I can afford. And without grading, like yugioh, x is always $50, if they are all mint.

[benxcrunner1]

Grading is overall good for the hobby imo, as things like TAG become more accepted, the other companies will need to improve (hopefully). While I do find it frustrating that there is no transparency, and that the same card can get different grades, I do think they get it right most of the time. It gives a little more confidence to me than just buying raw since a comp on a graded card is a lot more consistent for modern cards - for example I know psa 8 jordans sell for a certain price, and from there I can go find a good example psa 8. If i just wing it off eye appeal on a raw jordan, I might end up overpaying wildly.

[siuwongkee]

Grading is overall good for the hobby imo, as things like TAG become more accepted, the other companies will need to improve (hopefully). While I do find it frustrating that there is no transparency, and that the same card can get different grades, I do think they get it right most of the time. It gives a little more confidence to me than just buying raw since a comp on a graded card is a lot more consistent for modern cards - for example I know psa 8 jordans sell for a certain price, and from there I can go find a good example psa 8. If i just wing it off eye appeal on a raw jordan, I might end up overpaying wildly.

I think TAG is great but in the end, it will take a lot of time for individuals to realize we need transparency and consistency. (Like why this diamond is internal flawless and d colour) Most people nowadays are still CHASING a grade without accepting that grades are inconsistent. And to PSA, why will they ever need to IMPROVE as long as they still grade 1m cards monthly and the market is just 1.2-1.3m a month.

Of cos, maybe one day, PSA feel using a tech like TAG can increase their profit. For instance, by using AI, consistent and transparant reports, card prices increase further. Like a PSA 10 1987 Fleer Jordan with DETAIL information of the card is proved to able sell at 300k whilst a PSA 10 without those info is still 180k. So then they will think, um, so this card goes to 300k, first PSA can charge 5k more for the card, (Over 250k) then maybe 10k more for the detailed report. This is the only reason I see they are changing their grading/

[workingclasscards]

Grading companies are good for the hobby, because its one of the few things that can add value to trading cards.
PSA's value add is not in its ability to grade because grading is overrated for most cards that are not rare/valuable enough to be counterfeited.
When cards that require grading are in slabs, SGC and BGS cards sell a lot closer to PSA prices.

PSA's ecosystem with tools like auction prices realized and set registry create an incentive for collectors to spend more money on a PSA slab.
PSA APR creates a simple interface with eBay and PSA that shows an easy to follow price trend of a PSA graded card; when people can follow the price history of a card, they are more comfortable paying a premium for it. PSA set registry is a nice way to display PSA cards and creates a point system that creates competition to have the best grades. The more competition, the more the price for certain PSA graded cards increase ( See the Johnny Moore $10k PSA 10 sale).
PSA is also the only grading card company with an app, and they have neat features like the blind reveal feature for people who want to virtualize a blind reveal before their cards reach home or go to the vault.

Regarding the ability to accurately grade cards, it doesn't matter that much because most cards don't need true grading.
Most cards of most players are not rare/valuable enough to be faked or modified. Cards that require grading go for more in ANY grade than No grade (ex. Mickey Mantel rookie, PMGs, etc).
People accept grading of ultra modern cards because its become another game of chance in a hobby full of risk takers.
I've seen people react to their card grades the same way someone reacts when they pull a gold/10 or a gold vinyl trading card.
Grading doesnt make sense for most people, but they do it like breaking under some compulsion

[siuwongkee]

In terms of value of cards, yes. And how they are conducting busines is making things even BETTER for gamblers in the hobby. Keep regarding a valuable cards UNTIL it reaches a grade they desire is making the market alive.