Should Card "Cleaning" be Considered Alteration?

[mindcycle]

Interesting listen.

I was disappointed Jeremy didn't fall back on his association with Tag for some of his questions, especially when asking about grading companies communication and Kurt saying before/after is one of the only detection methods.

Not surprising, but if accurate and psa actually cares, hearing that Kurt has no submission restrictions is just crazy.

Jeremy might just have the most sponsors i've ever seen for a hobby content creator. He may not even know what title TAG gave him at this point..

I may be wrong but I thought I heard somewhere that Kurt was banned from grading with PSA?

[mindcycle]

I watched what I could manage to sit through for the Kurt interview, skipped around but I did finish it. The main question i'd want to hear an answer to would be if grading companies are saying they are against adding foreign chemicals to cards, and that they consider this altering, why does he still claim that he created his products "in compliance with grading". He says those exact words around the 35:30 mark and also alludes to it several other times during the interview. Is it cognitive dissonance or something else going on there? lol

[auburn35]

Interesting listen.

I was disappointed Jeremy didn't fall back on his association with Tag for some of his questions, especially when asking about grading companies communication and Kurt saying before/after is one of the only detection methods.

Not surprising, but if accurate and psa actually cares, hearing that Kurt has no submission restrictions is just crazy.

Jeremy might just have the most sponsors i've ever seen for a hobby content creator. He may not even know what title TAG gave him at this point..

I may be wrong but I thought I heard somewhere that Kurt was banned from grading with PSA?

I also skipped around but did hear Kurt mention that he submits to psa under his own name. 2:13:45
Didn't sound like he was banned and some of his examples, clearly show psa doesn't care enough to retroactively decertify his work after the fact. Referenced a conversation with Nat about a surface cleaning grade bump.

I left a comment of the SCL video, and thought it was odd Jeremy distanced himself from tag. He's posted about his involvement multiple times, and is even currently listed as an employee on tag's LinkedIn page. Maybe it's just an issue with semantics (restored/altered, employee/vice president), and he wasn't comfortable including tag in the conversation.

[AbraCalabro]

Off topic, but: TAG seems pretty interesting and I love their slabs. Anybody ever grade with them? I think I may end up sending my PC stuff that I plan to hold on to for a long time to them - even stuff that's already graded by BGS, but I love the BGS slabs also.

[mindcycle]

Via IG:


Here’s the link is to the original Twitter (X) post from Tiffany’s Cards showing the before (raw) and after (graded) copy of the card:
https://x.com/tiffanycards/status/17791 ... X4-IKzqTYA

Link to the soaking video:

[darz90scardz]

What was his “conservative” estimate of total altered cards submitted monthly again? 40,000?

I can’t listen to the guy again to even confirm.

I expected the soft questions, it’s the reason why he even agreed to be on this specific show, but the whole thing was “Great question, allow me to not answer it.”

[siuwongkee]

I feel, this is not a good enough reply from PSA. So we know Kurt's cleaning is alteration, how do they avoid that? Like, we know lab diamond is very popular now, so when I send a diamond to GIA, I need to know it is natural but not lab grown. I send a watch to Rolex, I need to know it is Authentic. But again, like the PSA 10 Wemby black, they just keep on saying, we do not see signs. (So does that mean their equipment is not updated enough?)

This is the reason I no longer feel like collecting 90s cards, it is really a mess I do not want to be in. Grading companies have too much say on the condition of the cards that determined the price of the card but it is obvious, their equipment and method is still in the 90s.

[AbraCalabro]

I don't know how you guys even managed to watch those videos, I can't even look at a still imagine of that guy's face without wanting to punch my monitor. He has one of the most punchable faces I've ever seen in sports cards since that douche garyv got ushered in, thank God that loser is out.

I honestly hope some big dollar big shot takes Kunt (kurt) to court.

I feel, this is not a good enough reply from PSA. So we know Kurt's cleaning is alteration, how do they avoid that? Like, we know lab diamond is very popular now, so when I send a diamond to GIA, I need to know it is natural but not lab grown. I send a watch to Rolex, I need to know it is Authentic. But again, like the PSA 10 Wemby black, they just keep on saying, we do not see signs. (So does that mean their equipment is not updated enough?)

This is the reason I no longer feel like collecting 90s cards, it is really a mess I do not want to be in. Grading companies have too much say on the condition of the cards that determined the price of the card but it is obvious, their equipment and method is still in the 90s.

I understand where you're coming from. There are guys who are very popular now who ruined the whole hobby, all this stuff that is happening now is a result of their selfish and greedy efforts. (Example, I recall seeing photos of one of the Nubani brothers using Kunt's card care, when instead he should be denouncing it!) 90s cards can be dangerous to get into if you don't know what to look out for and even then, sometimes people can be fooled. (see attachment for an example of this, some one got ripped off for 360+ dollars!!!)

Other hobbies regulate themselves very well, but in cards, unfortunately there are so many stupid people and losers who are ready to worship other grown men. There are some people who deny that there is any bad stuff happening, but that's either because they're ignorant and wish to stay that way, OR it is because they're in on it themselves and stand to profit...or they are covering for their friends. A good number of them used to post on BO.

If this goes to CGC there is at least a 50% chance they will not catch the problem, because they are incompetent. I have had first hand experience with CGC's incompetence. Not from a purchase, but from a sale. (They thought a real card was not authentic.)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375360705363

[siuwongkee]

I understand where you're coming from. There are guys who are very popular now who ruined the whole hobby, all this stuff that is happening now is a result of their selfish and greedy efforts. (Example, I recall seeing photos of one of the Nubani brothers using Kunt's card care, when instead he should be denouncing it!) 90s cards can be dangerous to get into if you don't know what to look out for and even then, sometimes people can be fooled. (see attachment for an example of this, some one got ripped off for 360+ dollars!!!)

Other hobbies regulate themselves very well, but in cards, unfortunately there are so many stupid people and losers who are ready to worship other grown men. There are some people who deny that there is any bad stuff happening, but that's either because they're ignorant and wish to stay that way, OR it is because they're in on it themselves and stand to profit...or they are covering for their friends. A good number of them used to post on BO.

If this goes to CGC there is at least a 50% chance they will not catch the problem, because they are incompetent. I have had first hand experience with CGC's incompetence. Not from a purchase, but from a sale. (They thought a real card was not authentic.)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375360705363

Screenshot 2024-04-20 at 23-07-24 Hakeem Olajuwon 1997-98 Flair Showcase Legacy Collection_100 SP HOF Rockets eBay.png

I mean tbh, I will not blame some collectors manipulate the market and do things like they keep showing cards that they do not own. (1 of my friends told me this, I can neither confirm or deny this, he just said, some of the "collectors" are not "collecors", and not every card they showed, are theirs) I think this is just human nature, like nowadays, One Piece TCG is booming like sports cards during covid. (But unlike sports cards, Bandi has been doing a good job that makes them, sellers and players all feel ok) Some retailers are trying to manipulate the market and they still preach about the importance of grading. (Which if you know me a bit, I loath so much.) And of cos they will promote how they can help you clean the card. (Using wax or how the hell can they fix the dots on the cards) I am really ok with that.

As for 90s cards, I mean I have myself to blame also. I am not loaded enought to only collect the best 5 sets from the 90s and basically the most collected other than MJ, Kobe, Shaq and Rodman, so competition of cos is furious. It is like I love the new Rolex Daytona but my account is not big enough to let the retailer gives me at list price.

But even so, unless I am completely irrational, I still cannot accept the fact that, let's say the raw card of a 1998 Penny PMG is 6k. (Just estimate, let's further this assuming the card has not bee appeared for 5 years) There is a PSA 9 pop 1 on the market, then not only Penny collectors are eyeing this, some set collectors whom want the highest graded copy also want this. But you know this is at best a PSA 7 (arround 7.5-8k) because it is an early graded copy from PSA. So the question, are you paying the premium of PSA 9 for a card you know is PSA 7 but most people are buying the grade? (Can go as high as 12-15k, so you have to pay 4-5k more for a grade not deserve?)

So I suppose this is where I think I should stop.

[AbraCalabro]

I mean tbh, I will not blame some collectors manipulate the market and do things like they keep showing cards that they do not own. (1 of my friends told me this, I can neither confirm or deny this, he just said, some of the "collectors" are not "collecors", and not every card they showed, are theirs) I think this is just human nature, like nowadays, One Piece TCG is booming like sports cards during covid. (But unlike sports cards, Bandi has been doing a good job that makes them, sellers and players all feel ok) Some retailers are trying to manipulate the market and they still preach about the importance of grading. (Which if you know me a bit, I loath so much.) And of cos they will promote how they can help you clean the card. (Using wax or how the hell can they fix the dots on the cards) I am really ok with that.

As for 90s cards, I mean I have myself to blame also. I am not loaded enought to only collect the best 5 sets from the 90s and basically the most collected other than MJ, Kobe, Shaq and Rodman, so competition of cos is furious. It is like I love the new Rolex Daytona but my account is not big enough to let the retailer gives me at list price.

But even so, unless I am completely irrational, I still cannot accept the fact that, let's say the raw card of a 1998 Penny PMG is 6k. (Just estimate, let's further this assuming the card has not bee appeared for 5 years) There is a PSA 9 pop 1 on the market, then not only Penny collectors are eyeing this, some set collectors whom want the highest graded copy also want this. But you know this is at best a PSA 7 (arround 7.5-8k) because it is an early graded copy from PSA. So the question, are you paying the premium of PSA 9 for a card you know is PSA 7 but most people are buying the grade? (Can go as high as 12-15k, so you have to pay 4-5k more for a grade not deserve?)

So I suppose this is where I think I should stop.

You do realize though, the stuff in your first paragraph has a lot to do with the reasoning that exists in your last paragraph and your decision to stop?

[siuwongkee]

You do realize though, the stuff in your first paragraph has a lot to do with the reasoning that exists in your last paragraph and your decision to stop?

Yes, I do. But I cannot blame people for that. Like today I talk to Dan on FB. I tell them when I told my friend how little care sports cards graders and auction house give towards authenticity of the item they grade or sell, they laugh. One of them suggested that, auction houses are always at war with shady people who alter collectibles. But do you see our graders or auction house doing that? No. And in a way, I believe collectors share the blame also. How should I put it nicely, but you have to admire how smart the shady people are and how stupid the mass is. Sigh.

[mindcycle]

You know I wouldn't normally knowingly subject you all to a Geoff Wilson video , however, he did recently interview Ryan Hoge and it appears they are working on detection methods for cleaned cards.

Using the following link you can skip right to the part about cleaning: https://youtu.be/8bfuICkhi4s?si=3At2ANQ7X3eUaDhd&t=2312

Regarding detection methods, I was pointed to the following CGC article by a guy over on IG. https://www.cgccards.com/news/article/1 ... charizard/

It talks about a rare Charizard card they recently graded, but the more interesting part is found if you scroll down to the "Analysis of the card" section. They go over various tests they conducted to determine if the card was legit or not. They used an XRF spectrometer to determine different chemical elements on the card. The guy I was talking to about this told me these types of devices can be purchased in handheld form.

So given CGC has the technology to detect all chemicals present in a Pokemon card using a scanner, I feel like it wouldn't all that hard to get that setup at PSA. Sure, there will be a cost involved, but given they could potentially be on the hook for thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars when they grade altered cards it seems like a decent investment to make.

[darz90scardz]

You know I wouldn't normally knowingly subject you all to a Geoff Wilson video , however, he did recently interview Ryan Hoge and it appears they are working on detection methods for cleaned cards.

Using the following link you can skip right to the part about cleaning: https://youtu.be/8bfuICkhi4s?si=3At2ANQ7X3eUaDhd&t=2312

Regarding detection methods, I was pointed to the following CGC article by a guy over on IG. https://www.cgccards.com/news/article/1 ... charizard/

It talks about a rare Charizard card they recently graded, but the more interesting part is found if you scroll down to the "Analysis of the card" section. They go over various tests they conducted to determine if the card was legit or not. They used an XRF spectrometer to determine different chemical elements on the card. The guy I was talking to about this told me these types of devices can be purchased in handheld form.

So given CGC has the technology to detect all chemicals present in a Pokemon card using a scanner, I feel like it wouldn't all that hard to get that setup at PSA. Sure, there will be a cost involved, but given they could potentially be on the hook for thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars when they grade altered cards it seems like a decent investment to make.

Yea, you’d have to think this will be implemented at some point out of necessity.

Remember how Genamint was supposed to save us in the first place?

[AbraCalabro]

I don't have much faith in CGC to be honest. Had an awful experience with them. If they're unable to tell that a non counterfeited set is real, then their efforts in anything else don't hold much promise.

[mindcycle]

I don't have much faith in CGC to be honest. Had an awful experience with them. If they're unable to tell that a non counterfeited set is real, then their efforts in anything else don't hold much promise.

Which cards did you send in?

[AbraCalabro]

I don't have much faith in CGC to be honest. Had an awful experience with them. If they're unable to tell that a non counterfeited set is real, then their efforts in anything else don't hold much promise.

Which cards did you send in?

Sold a card on consignment, raw, it got sent to the authenticator, which was CGC, or whatever their sports branch is (CSG) and they said the card was not authentic. What these novices don't understand about the particular card that was sent to them, is that the serial numbering can appear in either gold, or silver, so because they're ignorant, cost the sale and me the money, then I had to spend more money just to get the card authenticated / graded and it has been relisted...someone made a strong offer, card sold, then the buyer turned out to be a deadbeat and it has since been relisted. lol

CGC/CSG is trash. By the way, this particular release has never been counterfeited. I can send you more details in a PM if you want.