Bizzare Shill Bidding Episode on Dr Beckett Podcast

[mindcycle]

I had to throw up a post about this as it's just a really bizarre situation IMO.

Here's the quick run down. Patrick Ryan (PRyan on socials) posted an image on IG promoting a card he was auctioning on Fanatics Collect (formerly PWCC). The image showed a red "Outbid" banner, meaning he had actually placed a bid on the card and was outbid. He put up a now deleted IG live attempting to explain the situation, stating that he bid to "follow" the card. As you can probably imagine he was quickly called out for that lame excuse and eventually took the video down, go figure..

Here's a pretty good overview from SCR.



And a longer video about the topic for those interested.


So all that is interesting (sad maybe?), but truth be told, it's been fairly commonplace in the "hobby". Those of us who have been here for a minute are probably pretty familiar with at least some of the shilling scandals that have gone down on the big auction houses over the decades.

Here's the most bizarre part to me and why I decided to make this this post. PRyan recently recorded an interview with Dr Beckett for his podcast about this situation. Instead of admitting fault and apologizing to the community, he actually doubles down on it being a "mistake", and then him and Dr Beckett go on to justify shilling as "defensive bidding". A term i've never heard before and is just as stupid as it sounds. I transcribed that section of the podcast so you can read it for yourself.

00:06:40 Dr Beckett
When you're, to me, defensive shilling as opposed to manipulative offensive shielding, defensive shilling, in the sense of bidding on your own stuff. It's not shilling if you intend to pay.
You say, I'm going to buy it for that. I'm not bidding it up.I'm saying at that price, count me in, I'll buy it back.

00:06:55 PRyan
A number of people can say, my friends, we bid on one another's items just to protect them because we're not going to let some other idiot get a really good deal.

00:07:04 Dr Beckett
Protection is below this implicit reserve. That does not mess with comps. In fact, comps would be messed up if you didn't have that.

Afterwards, there is some further discussion about reserves and whatnot, i'd suggest you listen to the whole thing for better context (I linked it below). I believe this exposes something a lot of us have been aware of for a long time, that these guys involved in the highest end auctions are actively shilling their stuff. Either themselves or via their friends. To hear someone as prominent in the hobby as Dr Beckett not only endorse this activity, but to hear he's also actively participating in it, is truly mind boggling to me.

I'm not here claiming to be an expert on high end auctions for sports cards/memorabilia or the like, but IMO this type of behavior AND justification for doing so, is not only super shady, it's morally wrong. If you auction what you believe to be a 20K card but it sells for 5K to real bidders, it's actually "worth" 5k, not 20k, right? At least for a time. But let's say you auction that same "20k" card and bid it up (or have a friend bid it up) to 20k and they win it. They pay, then give it back to you. You then throw it up for auction again a few month later with that "comp" out there and someone pays 25K because they saw the last sale, then suddenly it's "worth" more..?

That's just a single scenario where this type of shady ass behavior can lead to not only artificially propped up comps, but over inflate the high end market as a whole. Not only that, but leads me to believe that the vast majority of card "values" for a lot of the high end stuff is completely inflated to the point that if the majority of collectors ever caught wind of what was really going on, they'd panic sell and could very well lead to that sector crashing hard. It would also very likely have a negative impact on the industry as a whole. Even though a lot of people claim the high end market is it's own thing, at this point most of us have seen the trickle down effect to mid-tier/lower end cards. Stuff that a lot of us here collect. Anyone remember the 2020/21 boom, or have we all forgotten already? lol

TBH, stuff like this is like reason #57 and counting as to why I don't participate in high end auctions or use any of the auction houses myself. Let me know your all's thoughts on this.

[SacKingsCards]

Thanks for the rundown, this is all absurd yet unsurprising. This PRyan dude has always seemed like a bad actor and it didn’t take me long to unfollow him. Then I heard he started doing his own repacks in which he would insert his own personal autographs (with different numbered variations) into said repacks. I mean if the egocentric online presence and the constant shoving of your face and opinion down everyone’s throat isn’t evidence enough, the pack pulled “autos” just go to show that these hobby influencers are all about being celebrities in the hobby. It’s the hobby version of those girls with the onlyfans or whatever. Building up a massive following and profiting off it, both with brand sponsors and shill bidding apparently.

And what is Beckett doing defending this? What would compel him to have this guy on his show and spew off this crap supporting shill bidding and market manipulation? I’m interested to see what the fallout is for both of them. I’m guessing little to nothing. They both have big enough names, valuable enough collections, and enough public photos with premier athletes for people to continue to want to associate with them. I’m glad all the response I’ve seen so far has been negative, will be interesting to see the response from friends of these two, particularly Beckett, who have had them on the big shows and podcasts.

[auburn35]

Such a ridiculous discussion (admission) from Beckett and Ryan. While there were plenty of bad takes, Patrick was likely saved from digging an even deeper hole, with Beckett often cutting him off, to downplay the actions or add qualifiers (if you pay, below the reserve, probstein said it was okay,...).

Haven't seen an explanation, but it looks like someone got to Neo and a few others who put out response videos. Videos discussing the podcast were removed. Crazy.

[mindcycle]

Thanks for the rundown, this is all absurd yet unsurprising. This PRyan dude has always seemed like a bad actor and it didn’t take me long to unfollow him. Then I heard he started doing his own repacks in which he would insert his own personal autographs (with different numbered variations) into said repacks. I mean if the egocentric online presence and the constant shoving of your face and opinion down everyone’s throat isn’t evidence enough, the pack pulled “autos” just go to show that these hobby influencers are all about being celebrities in the hobby. It’s the hobby version of those girls with the onlyfans or whatever. Building up a massive following and profiting off it, both with brand sponsors and shill bidding apparently.

And what is Beckett doing defending this? What would compel him to have this guy on his show and spew off this crap supporting shill bidding and market manipulation? I’m interested to see what the fallout is for both of them. I’m guessing little to nothing. They both have big enough names, valuable enough collections, and enough public photos with premier athletes for people to continue to want to associate with them. I’m glad all the response I’ve seen so far has been negative, will be interesting to see the response from friends of these two, particularly Beckett, who have had them on the big shows and podcasts.

Yeah it was very surprising to heard Dr Beckett's attempts to justify what to me was obvious shilling. Intentional or not, it doesn't matter. You placed a bid on your own item.

The attempts to downplay the situation have only made things worse IMO.

Such a ridiculous discussion (admission) from Beckett and Ryan. While there were plenty of bad takes, Patrick was likely saved from digging an even deeper hole, with Beckett often cutting him off, to downplay the actions or add qualifiers (if you pay, below the reserve, probstein said it was okay,...).

Haven't seen an explanation, but it looks like someone got to Neo and a few others who put out response videos. Videos discussing the podcast were removed. Crazy.

I reached out to both Neo and Sports Card Dad (who also had a YT video up that is now gone). Neo said he will discuss it briefly on his video Sunday. I haven't heard back from Sports Card Dad yet.

Definitely seems a bit odd though. If it's coming from the PRyan or Dr Beckett camp trying to suppress discussion, I think it's a bit too late at this point. I guess we won't know for sure until one of those guys speaks up about it.

[mindcycle]

Below is a podcast episode from around 5 years ago where Dr Beckett talks about shill bidding. Some of his thoughts on this episode seem to completely contradict the views he expresses in his latest interview with PRyan.

You have to wonder what changed between then and now..

[auburn35]

That previous shill bidding discussion is a great find.

[AbraCalabro]

And a longer video about the topic for those interested.

00:06:40 Dr Beckett
When you're, to me, defensive shilling as opposed to manipulative offensive shielding, defensive shilling, in the sense of bidding on your own stuff. It's not shilling if you intend to pay.
You say, I'm going to buy it for that. I'm not bidding it up.I'm saying at that price, count me in, I'll buy it back.

00:06:55 PRyan
A number of people can say, my friends, we bid on one another's items just to protect them because we're not going to let some other idiot get a really good deal.

00:07:04 Dr Beckett
Protection is below this implicit reserve. That does not mess with comps. In fact, comps would be messed up if you didn't have that.

Jesse Craig, formerly of PWCC which was outed for it's rancid corruption and now this same guy is the founder of Acquir.co, you can't make this sh!t up!

That quoted exchange between Dr Beckett and PRyan is such a crock of sh!t. It's complete nonsensical word salad from both of them to justify their corrupt actions.

"We bid on one another's items just to protect them because we're not going to let some other idiot get a really good deal." - Are you f*cking kidding me? You're shilling the card, dumbass. Flat out corruption, PRyan and his loser co-conspirators friends. If you're worried about not selling at a certain price, then you put a reserve on it. End of story.

Which brings me to the next line of laughable hot air, this time from Dr Beckett, "Protection is below this implicit reserve. That does not mess with comps. In fact, comps would be messed up if you didn't have that."

No, moron, if it doesn't hit reserve without you artificially helping the bid price up to the reserve, then the reserve is too high, above market. Which means the seller needs to come down on price. So, you're actually artificially inflating the price where it doesn't belong. YOU are messing up the comps.

Both these losers make me sick. They all love to do this bull sh!t, they're all loaded and they just can't ever have enough money, they talk about how much they love the hobby, but they're really money grubbing crooks. Sports cards high-end is made up of 99% human trash.

[mindcycle]

Welp.. Here's Neos 30 second explanation at the beginning of this video..

Pinned by @NEO_Cards_Comics
@NEO_Cards_Comics
A conversation was had between myself and a third party, after said conversation I made the choice to remove the video its as simple as that. To answer some of the comments no sponsor was involved, no crazy payoffs.

Still no response from Sports Card Dad.

[dengbang]

Fun to watch these characters get themselves into sticky situations then try to wiggle themselves out. There's so many bad actors in this space compared to a couple decades ago, but the outcome is always the same. They slip up, get outted by the community and as a last resort get others in the hobby to back them up.

A lot of these guys never truly leave the hobby either so always be cautious of who you're dealing/associating yourself with.

[mindcycle]

IMO, it's pretty clear Neo was threatened with legal action from his responses below that I grabbed from the above video.

TBH, I don't really blame him for pulling the video. Not worth risking getting sued and going up against guys with millions likely looking to tank your life for a YT video.

[dengbang]

IMO, it's pretty clear he was threatened with legal action from his responses below that I grabbed from the above video.

I never understood the legality of this...you post a video up about something that happened and voice your opinion...

Did Neo intentionally bash Beckett and PRy?

[darz90scardz]

Speaking of figures from pwcc past, I laughed when this was the first thing that popped up on my IG feed a few minutes ago…

[mindcycle]

IMO, it's pretty clear he was threatened with legal action from his responses below that I grabbed from the above video.

I never understood the legality of this...you post a video up about something that happened and voice your opinion...

Did Neo intentionally bash Beckett and PRy?

I didn't actually catch the first video about it so i'm not sure what was discussed. I'd imagine the "third party" he mentioned was a legal firm who threatened a lawsuit, probably a SLAPP style lawsuit if I had to guess, but nonetheless a threat like that is pretty scary. Technically, unless it could be proven in court that he was attempting to defame either individual (assuming this is what the legal threat was about), nothing would have come of it and it likely would be dropped. But in the process of bringing that before a judge and defending yourself you could easily be financially ruined. The two guys involved here likely have millions to throw at something like that and defending yourself in those cases can get really expensive really fast in legal costs.

[mindcycle]

Speaking of figures from pwcc past, I laughed when this was the first thing that popped up on my IG feed a few minutes ago…

IMG_6737.jpeg

LOL

[AbraCalabro]

Speaking of figures from pwcc past, I laughed when this was the first thing that popped up on my IG feed a few minutes ago…

IMG_6737.jpeg

lmao

gives new meaning to the term, "holy sh!t" ... more like haole sh!t.

This is Erik Myers, the PWCC employee who bid on one of their auctions and won that MJ RC which was flagged as a submission that game from Card Dr. Robert Block? Or did he have one of his friends bid on the card for him?

trash either way

[auburn35]

That would be an interesting dinner to listen in on, especially with Beckett in the hobby news cycle.

Don't blame Neo for pulling the video, if there were legitimate legal threats. Not worth the headache or fight, when the entire hobby still has access to the unedited source, with Beckett and Ryan discussing shill bidding.

If a threat was made, it is really odd that neither Beckett or Patrick have put out a correction themselves (that I'm aware of). If something they said is being misinterpreted, pulling/editing the source would be more efficient. The hobby will still be discussing the conversation, based on what they heard Beckett and Ryan say.

[FrankAZHP]

Shilling is bad guys. Groundbreaking stuff. How am I not surprised? And how do the people getting caught or content with this behavior keep getting a pass in the hobby?

sighs....

[darz90scardz]

Another case of someone saying they’re going dark, but not really. Why take an actual break when you can story post your cell number and charitable donation to the Jackie Robinson Foundation?

[mindcycle]

Another case of someone saying they’re going dark, but not really. Why take an actual break when you can story post your cell number and charitable donation to the Jackie Robinson Foundation?

IMG_6772.jpeg
IMG_6770.jpeg

I saw this man, lol.

[mindcycle]

Here's an interesting article from cllct on shill bidding. This is the Darren Rovell run hobby media site for those not familiar with it.

https://www.cllct.com/sports-collectibl ... -the-hobby

A lot of people were wondering if Darren would create an article on this topic given Patrick Ryan is an investor in cllct. He does point this out in at the beginning of the article, however, which I appreciate.

Editor's Note: Patrick Ryan is an investor in cllct.

A bit further down in the article Darren attempts to explain the different bidding terms and conditions on various auction houses. They mention Heritage, stating that cosigners, employees, and Heritage themselves, can bid on auctioned items. This is allowed because it's legal under Texas law (where they are based out of). This has always seemed super shady to me so i'm glad he mentions it. You guys remember all the Exquisite cards that sold recently on Heritage for 10x plus eBay comps? Makes you wonder..lol

Here's an interesting quote from further down in that section that I wanted to highlight. Goldin was mentioned, but very briefly. Here's what was said.

We could not find the terms and conditions on Goldin Auctions' website, but as an eBay company, the rules likely revert to the parent company's terms.

TJ isoline over on IG was quick to find the related info for him..

Relevant sections quoted below.

vii. Goldin reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to execute written or telephonic bids, but shall have no obligation to do so and shall not be liable for any errors or omissions in executing such bids should it agree to do so.

viii. Goldin may place bids below the reserve on behalf of the Seller, either consecutively or in response to other bids.

xi. The officers, directors, and employees of Goldin and its parent company and affiliates, including eBay, Inc., may bid in an auction (so long as such individual does not know the reserve, if any) or consign items on the Goldin website as an individual collector outside the scope of their employment or corporate role.

https://goldin.co/useragreement

Maybe it was an honest mistake, but if this article was an attempt to accurately talk through things it's a fail nonetheless. It's pretty clear Goldin and their employees can bid on seemingly anything they auction. The whole bidding up stuff to the reserve (which is often hidden) has been a pretty big talking point on recent coverage in YT videos and podcasts, so i'm surprised the Goldin terms were left out. I also have issues with the fact that reserves in general were pretty much just glossed over in this article.

I always have to wonder how many unknown ties there are in this industry and if the stuff that looks like it was left out accidentally may not be all that accidental..

[AbraCalabro]

Another case of someone saying they’re going dark, but not really. Why take an actual break when you can story post your cell number and charitable donation to the Jackie Robinson Foundation?

IMG_6772.jpeg
IMG_6770.jpeg

this is basically what he's doing:



woahhhhhhhhh u donated to the Jackie Robinson foundation! All is forgotten now! What a great guy, shill on PRyan!

I always have to wonder how many unknown ties there are in this industry and if the stuff that looks like it was left out accidentally may not be all that accidental..

It's a safe bet all day long that the ties run deep. Every action taken by this crowd indicates they're all money hungry, ruthless business men. They can type / speak whatever words of positivity they want, their actions are in opposition to what their claims are and what they claim to be.

Been calling this crap out over 10 years now, they still cry conspiracy theory, hater, etc., even with evidence front and center for every one to see and incredibly, basically, complete admission of their actions and you still have legions of people like this:

[auburn35]

It's nice to see auction houses and their BS terms getting exposed.

Not directly related to shill bidding, but highlighting the manipulation and control auction houses have on the market, I present this text exchange between Goldin and high-end client.

Lots of fun, but it's absolutely laughable that a simple photo (someone not even selling the card) can scare an auction house enough to request they remove the possibility someone thinks a better card might be available and reduce the current auction prices.

[mindcycle]

Another case of someone saying they’re going dark, but not really. Why take an actual break when you can story post your cell number and charitable donation to the Jackie Robinson Foundation?

IMG_6772.jpeg
IMG_6770.jpeg

this is basically what he's doing:



woahhhhhhhhh u donated to the Jackie Robinson foundation! All is forgotten now! What a great guy, shill on PRyan!

I always have to wonder how many unknown ties there are in this industry and if the stuff that looks like it was left out accidentally may not be all that accidental..

It's a safe bet all day long that the ties run deep. Every action taken by this crowd indicates they're all money hungry, ruthless business men. They can type / speak whatever words of positivity they want, their actions are in opposition to what their claims are and what they claim to be.

Been calling this crap out over 10 years now, they still cry conspiracy theory, hater, etc., even with evidence front and center for every one to see and incredibly, basically, complete admission of their actions and you still have legions of people like this:

Yeah, it's absolutely sad man. I find it hilarious that these guys still want to refer to what they are doing as a "hobby" but their actions are so far from a hobby at this point it's honestly just insulting to hear them use that term. Their whole focus for being in "the hobby" is profiting off those they can device using shady ass tactics.

What it really comes down to is I need another long break from social media..

[mindcycle]

It's nice to see auction houses and their BS terms getting exposed.

Not directly related to shill bidding, but highlighting the manipulation and control auction houses have on the market, I present this text exchange between Goldin and high-end client.

Lots of fun, but it's absolutely laughable that a simple photo (someone not even selling the card) can scare an auction house enough to request they remove the possibility someone thinks a better card might be available and reduce the current auction prices.

Wow..unbelievable. It really does show you not only how tightly controlled the high end market is, but just how far these guys will go to hide stuff from people so they can make an extra buck.

All the collusion and manipulation only brings us one step closer to laying the final card on an already collapsing house of cards.

[auburn35]

Another week, some more hobby craziness.

If the failed launch of Probstein's new auction wasn't bad enough, this forum thread highlights some alleged serious issues with user info and shill bidding.

Not surprising to see Kevin Burge mixed in with all those Probstein accounts.

https://www.elitefourum.com/t/backend-v ... ding/59369